This is my attempt to transcribe a very bad tape of Joey Baron's symposium at the New School a couple weeks ago. After I flipped the first side, some really hideous mechanical noise appears on the tape for some reason -- S/N ratio probably averages, oh, maybe 50% or something? :) My walkman appears to have seen better days (it has been serving as the official Game of Death recording device, so it gets a workout...). I've written "[?]" where I couldn't make something out. To set the scene, I arrived pretty much on time, with my brother Rob (guitarist, Game of Death), his roommate Nas (who plays conga, drums, and is currently taking bass lessons), and Ara (drummer for Agent 99 and Game of Death). There was only one other person in the audience and Joey Baron was setting up the drumset, then he sat down to eat his lunch. The auditorium got pretty crowded once people filtered in from classes. Personally, I can't think of any drummer I would more like to play with than Joey Baron. I should have seized on this opportunity! But often I just don't feel comfortable playing at school, even in relatively small classes. What Baron said about straight-ahead vs. avant-garde playing, and why he switched, that's exactly how I feel about most of what goes on at school. There are certainly cool people there, but at least in this case, I got a disturbing sort of negative vibe from the audience, a sort of "jazz mob" mentality! :) Certain mutterings could be heard when Baron mentioned Zorn. Anyway, I apologize for the flaws in my transcription. Maybe if I spent another few hours on it I could clean it up more; I did think about editing it to make it more eloquent as a written statement (his delivery "live" was fine, but written down it looks terrible...) but I've spent enough time on this already! Hope you like it.
Q: [laughter]
JB: i detect that that means yes. um... well, somebody open it up. yeah?
Q: yeah um i think for most of the student that come from-- not americans, it's a great opportunity coming to New York and learn jazz and New York is a great inspiration for jazz [?] do you think now -- cuz you travel and you play with a lot of people around the world -- do you think you can get the same um amount of information and the same inspiration to learn the same thing as somewhere else rather than New York?
JB: um you're talking to a die-hard guy who's in love with New York. heheheh. i think this is a great center, it's a focal point it might not be there might be that much active work for the creative you know like for playing. you know i mean clubs which there are to play creative music there could-- there could always be more here. the thing about New York is it's a community. you got guys like reggie, could bump into him at any point any time, got guys walking around-- the other day i bumped into jimmy cobb, you know, or elvin jones, or um -- could i ask you to everybody to sit a little closer? cuz it helps me with talking... um, yeah, yeah, come on... -- i would say that New York isn't the only place you can learn stuff, you know it's obvious if you've ever heard any music from other countries, folk music or anything, but the community here is to me what New York is about. you can come here from anywhere in the world and if you're interested in anything you'll find another peson, most likely a group of people, to connect with about that thing, and it's-- not only that, you'll find if you stick to it you'll find a group of people that want and are interested to hear what you're thinking about.
Q: my question was maybe related to, ah, the difficulty for us, I mean, we're still students and it's kind of a safe world, a safe music world, but as soon as we-- we're really going to get into the real music business, [?] in New York, i see the difficulty to just make a living as a musician here.
JB: it's difficult, i mean yeah, i guess that's another i should say, this, you know, most of my experience is like out in the field, i've been-- maybe i should give you a little bit of background. i'm 38 years old. i've been playing since i was 9 and uh travelling, starting you know like on weekends when i was a kid travelling since i was about 10 and a half. um so my expertise is kind of like out there in the field, so any questions you have about that kind of stuff, you might not be getting information about, i'll do my best to answer and-- to answer your point, it is really hard, to get out of school and out of the academic world, um, it's a whole other thing, surviving, and paying your rent, you know, paying-- if your can pay your rent, that's being a success, forget about Downbeat awards and all that stuff, paying your rent, that's like high art. um it's-- it's difficult and a lot of different people-- everybody has their own way of making things work. i have some really good friends who, um, they came into music through a different angle than i did, uh i'm mainly, well, most of my experience has been as a player, and doing apprenticeships, and sideman [with] a lot of different kinds of musicians. i have friends like John Zorn, who's mainly a composer, that's his main thing he's been doing since he was a child. and he had his own way of making music and he just stuck to that and in terms of surviving, uh you know he did day jobs, worked at record stores, he helped assist people in the theater, you know, and he kept his overhead low, he didn't-- he didn't he didn't live in a big fancy place or anything like that. a lot of people do that, other people do a lot of commercial work, they end up doing club dates or if they're lucky enough to do recording work or jingles. ah, some people-- you know it's as many different people as there are that's as many different stories as there are, as to how people pull it together. i mean myself [?] i've, you know, managed to survive. like, when i first came to New York, i got at the end of the line... and that was after, um-- i had been playing, you know, touring around the world, with you know pretty famous people, and i came here and i was working on wall street as a file clerk. and uh there's nothing wrong with that, it's like whatever you-- whatever works for you, that's what's happening, you don't have to feel bad if you're not um making your living playing music, that's really um i think that's a point in your growth, and progress, that you're gonna have a career, uh people think you gotta make your living playing music and they make choices about jobs based on that alone, they forget why they picked up their intsruments in the first place. i can't really say which way to go, that's like a personal choice, you know. if you have a vision of your own music, and you're writing it and everything, um, you know you just have to think you just have to think-- you just to have think about these issues, and decide for yourself. i just want to say that there's no right way to do it. like, um, have you, has anybody ever heard of Tim Berne? [yeah] Has anybody not heard of Tim Berne? [yeah] OK, Tim Berne is a saxophonist, an alto saxophonist, and he writes his own music, and you know it's not what they call commercial music, you're not going to hear it on CD 101 or anything like that, but it's really good, it's good music. uh you know he worked at tower records for years, behind the cash register and he worked for other record companies, just doing, you know, like, deliver this, get me that, those kind of jobs and he learned about some of the business that way and today he's got like his own band and he's like writing, doing commissions for you know a lot of different people, he's got a lot of things on the ball. uh, that's how he went at it. for quite a while there, he was just a-- nobody knew of him at all, he just steadily worked at his own music, and then to take care of his rent and his expenses he did a day job. that's one way to do it. anything is possible, you just have to think about what's gonna be right and make sense for you. um, when i-- i lived in los angeles for about 6, 7, about 7 years. and during that time, you know i went there to play jazz, i had no idea there was a recording industry in los angeles! that's where i [?] and you know i ended up playing with a lot of really great people there and you know and then as time went on i ended up you know um playing with those great people i wasn't earning you know a great salary just because there wasn't a salary there to be earned but as time went on and my name got around people would call me, you know like bigger name like Ax [sp?], you know, Lou Rawls, like, was one of them and i worked with him for a while-- he couldn't find a drummer that could play with an orchestra and follow a conductor. you know, and i kinda knew how to do that, so i got with him you know worked with him for a little bit, and we played las vegas and you know i'll never forget the impression of the musicians, like all these guys were like they were sitting there totally bored, all of them had newsweek and time on their music folders. they had played the show 5 million times and they knew it in their sleep and that's kind of where they were at, and that to me um made me think about, like, somewhere along the way those guys made a choice to do something solely for the um reasons of money, and they kind of forgot why-- what was good about playing music. um, again, there were a few people that were really into the job, but for the most part my memory is of people just sitting there like this, you know, i mean that's, like, they're playing music! so, think about that kind of stuff. it's very important to have a focus, and always remember, why you picked up a microphone to sing, why you picked up a pair of drumsticks, what was that inital feeling? what's the point, you know?
if that answers... ?
Q: yeah, yeah, sure.
JB: some other questions? um, about playing or or anything like that? like i, you know, this isn't strictly a lecture, if you've got something that's hanging you up in terms of playing, since there's a lot of instruments represented here, you know, about playing with a group uh...
Q: the fact that you started mostly playing um well i would say avant-garde at a certain point and kind of abandoned playing uh straight-ahead uh was it a decision, or did it just develop like that?
JB: um... wait a minute, say your question again...
Q: well, there was some point, like, you played with like a lot of straight-ahead, great great musicians, and so on and so on, and at some point you just started, like now you're mostly working with avant-garde bands, so i was wondering was thatt a decision of yours or was it something that just developed?
JB: That was a conscious decision and I didn't really abandon you know those straight-ahead things, I mean I still use, use that, I mean, um, my history has been a lot of jazz playing, and R & B, and rock and roll was where I started, and ah so after going through playing with a lot of different people, there's a point at which you know like you get you start getting calls from everybody and you do their gig and you do their gig and you fill around, and you do somebody else's gig, and at a certain point I wanted something else, I wanted to take what I love about all this music and I apply it in a different context, and that's where it was the conscious decision to, you know, to decide to lead a band, to associate with people who came from a different point of view, you know, who weren't-- it's like, I was a jazz snob for quite a while! You know, I was one of these guys who you know if it wasn't jazz it wasn't music, almost, and I went through, and I think everybody goes through a phase like that, hopefully we can all get out of it, because there's a lot of music out there that can feed each other. So that's basically what I did. I made a conscious decision to take what I love about jazz and, you know, funky groove playing, and apply it somewhere else, and to twist it around a little, you know, adding a personal-- something personal.
Anders: In the music you play now with your trio, you have a lot of like street-beat kind of playing. Where do you look for that, where did you study that, where did you check it out?
JB: Well, like marching bands, when I a kid was growing up, I would, you know, like, parades, just watching bands and listening to them and um combining like the strict feeling that I heard from them with looser-oriented sort of things, like uh you know New Orleans type of music, Louis Armstrong, you know, just-- it's not a particular drummer I listened to, it's just the feeling of the music. So that's, um-- and in-- well, in different cultures too, like in Brazil, there's a lot of street beats only there's a different, um, it's interpreted differently, you know, like, they, in Brazil, eighth-notes are interpreted a little bit different. Um, so I was just aware-- you know, as I listened to music, I kinda noticed, like hey, you know, this guy's playing like one two three four [1+2+3+4], I would notice like in a pop record or something [1+2+3+4+1+2+3+4] the pulse would be like this and when I would listen to a Brazilian record I would notice, like [something much harder to transcribe :) sort of a 6 feel over the four maybe?]. Time was still there but there something different in the way people were phrasing. So I just kinda listened for that, and put it together the way I heard it, you know. It's nothing new, you know, it's just listening to something and seeing how it affects you, and using it. um, but for the street beats, you know, like, uh, check out like some early like, uh, New Orleans music, that that kind of feel.
Q: Can you give some example?
JB: Louis Armstrong, any Louis Armstrong record. [?] you know, him with Earl Fatha Hines. Um, anything with Baby Dodds playing drums on it. Um, just go to a library or or look around. Someone else? Yeah?
Nas: Yeah, uh, I was wondering what sort of challenges do you find yourself facing, playing with John Zorn, playing music, um, I mean is it difficult for you or does it come easy, or I mean, you seem to be the perfect fit for his sort of music, that he's found, so what do you think distinguishes yourself from the other, or another drummer, say, that allows you you to play that?
edp (mumbling): cuz you said earlier also that you could play with a conductor and the orchestra better, and I wonder if that relates cuz Zorn kinda conducts like those Naked City tunes and stuff too and they have very complicated shifts in tempo and rhythm and stuff...
JB: Well, ok, the challenges for working with a guy like Zorn, it depends, he's got so many different kinds of music, writes pieces that if you heard it, you'd probably think, Jesus Christ, it's like nothing but complete feedback and noise -- and it is! -- but that's what he heard and that's what he worked on. Uh, so it depends, sometimes I find myself extremely physically challenged, you know, I'm a little guy, I'm not a-- I don't lift sides of buildings for fun or anything like that, so I'm not like exactly a power-oriented type of player, but for some of his music, um, I had to like kind of train a little bit to have the stamina just to keep up with the volume, because when you're working as a drummer, you're working with people who put their stuff through an amp, you know, if they want to get loud, they can just go like that [twirls knob] or get closer into the mic, and as that gets louder, as a drummer, for me, you know I wanna accompany that, I don't want to get buried by it, totally, unless that's what the effect and um you have to the stamina to do that so, um that was the first one big challenge, the physical challenge... And, you know, when somebody looks at you and tells you: blow as hard and as fast and as long as you can right now and don't stop until I cut you off, that's hard! That's really hard! I mean, you can't-- if you start-- you can tell when you start to giving up you know and when that happens you look and you hear that and you see a glare. Uh, that's challenging, you know, um, to give a composer what he wants or she wants. So, the other thing that was uh that's challenging is, like, John's music is not about development, you'll never hear anything that John does that's really about um-- he's not as concerned with development of ideas as he is with presenting them. his-- his main focus as a musician is presentation, you know presenting a concept, presenting an idea, but um, so, for me, my whole thing has been spending years and years learning how to develop, take one little phrase and dig deep and go into it and approach it from a very deep place. Um, it's very hard to come away from that and just play something and then move on to another thought, like for three seconds, he might say, play something, like, uh, some just really funky groove, you know, and then the next thing is pick up the brushes and make scratchy sounds real fast, and you gotta watch, think about that, it's really challenging, it's another way to think, cuz, um, I mean, how many of us here think of ourselves as jazz musicians, or mainly interested in jazz?
Q: [people raise their hands]
JB: What do the rest of us think of?
edp (more or less inaudible mumbling): Musicians.
JB: What do you think?
Q: Just to be a musician.
JB: OK, that's great. I'll say, jazz musicians tend to, um, at a certain point, you know, it's very easy, because, um, you know, there's so much homework to do just to be able to play the music, to be able to play a standard tune, make the chord changes, play within em, and do all the "right" things. It's very easy once you have all those skills to kinda stop listening, to close your eyes and just, you know, just to play without really being aware of what's happening on the stage. The thing about Zorn is, if you close your eyes, you're dead! You're really dead! You've gotta keep aware every second. And I like that, it was really different, because I found myself a lot of times playing in situations with um-- I'd be playing and I'd get the feeling that people weren't-- soloists or whatever, they weren't really listening, they were just doing a function, you know. And that's what attracted me to play a little more adventurous type of music, and to bring what I know about straight-ahead things, um I was interested in being involved with these people that were like "bam-bam-bam-bam", because it does something to the listener as well. I don't know, I think to me the age of people getting up and just exhibiting how great they can play, I think, for me, I'm not really interested in that. I don't like to, you know-- it's a whole era of that that we've gone through, and I think it's great, you know, and I think people that can do it, you know, that's a major accomplishment, but I think there are other things around to do with that, like once you get that skill, what are you going to do with it?
Q: So you think it's good to go through that first? Cuz I mean that's what you did...
JB: Oh yeah, I mean, yeah, I-- the basic thing for me, I loved, when I was a kid, um I didn't come from a musical family at all, my parents were very poor and um you know I would get a stack of records, old scratched-up records from backyard sales or something, and I'd just stack em up and put em on and beat on pillows, play along with them. One record was like, um I don't know where I got a Mongo Santamaria record, another record was a Wes Montgomery record, uh -- and I didn't know who these people were -- another record was a Buddy Rich big band record, and then the Beatles, uh, Santana... I mean at that time, Jimi Hendrix, Santana, the Beatles, all this stuff -- and James Brown, Ray Charles -- all this stuff, it was you could turn on one radio station and hear one minute you hear Jimmy Smith playing the organ, the next minute you'd hear Miles Davis, and the next minute you'd hear the, uh, the Beatles, the next minute Booker T and the MG's, I mean, it was not such a specialized thing, at least where I grew up, and uh the climate of, you know, the social scene. I would put these records on, and I loved the music! I didn't care about if this is jazz, or this or that, when I first started, and that is kinda, like, that basis has kinda like helped me to this day. If somebody wants to do something and they might say hey, could give me an Eddie Arnold country/western kind of groove on this, you know, I know exactly what they're talking about and it's fun! You know cuz when you do it you know that stuff can swing as well as anything else. It's just there's been a lot of bad country music, just like there's been a lot of bad jazz music, you know. But, um, did I answer your question? OK. Yeah?
Q: Yeah, who do you think um today is innovating as radically as bebop and could be looked at that way?
JB: Um, Don Byron? He's like phenomenonal. I think you know the way it goes when people are happening right now they're really severely criticized or, like um, like any individual voice always gets criticized, negatively, you know, by people who aren't even qualified to criticize. Uou take your average music critic, and ah-- like, I don't critique, you know, so I don't-- but I think you're average music critic, if they're watching or listening to a concert of somebody play a standard, like say they're playing a song called "Just Friends", they're critiquing it. I always thought, how could they critique it? Do they know what the chord changes are? Do they know what the melody is? Could they sing the melody? And if they can't, how do they know if it's wrong? And that, you know, that's kind of an age-old thing, Jamil Nasir [sp?], a really great bass player, I saw him talk to people like that, and that's what he said, and that made me think about stuff like that, but to answer your question, Don Byron is-- I think he's really, um, you know he's one of the smartest people I've ever met in my life. He's really, and he's a great artist, you know, and he's totally absorbed the traditional, um, thing, and and as well as classical music, too. He's a great artist. That's just one. You know, he doesn't, he has many different bands I, sometimes I play with him, his regular drummer in this jazz group he has is Marvin Smitty Smith, sometimes when Smitty can't make it I'll fill in, you know, and it's really fun playing with him, it's straight-ahead, but he's not afraid to take chances, he's not just sitting up there reciting things that he's learned, he's putting himself into the music you know, he's not just playing scales, and he's not just playing licks, or when he does, he's playing it in a way that you can tell he thought of it at first, you know, when he does it, and how he does it, how loud he does it, all kinds of stuff like that.
Bill Frisell is another guy, I work with him pretty closely, and I think um you know maybe twenty years from now people will look back at him as being a, a force, another guy who has taken things... And he and I have a very similar background, and he's, you know, he's written some incredibly beautiful music that is um, it just kind of breaks down a wall of is it jazz, it is this, is it that, is it modern, is it old? You know, it's just music, you know, you either like it or you don't. And that's what excites me, I think that's the kind of thing that comes across, like if you listen to a Charlie Parker record, you know, you don't have to know, even if you don't know what he's doing, you don't understand technically, there's some kind of thing there in his sound that comes through, that just reaches and just goes over that wall that separates everybody into all these stupid groups you know and ah, I think those are the people that get as time goes on, maybe you know unfortunately a lot of times [?] you know we all die, that stuff happens. Those are, you know, a few-- there's lots, but they're not necessarily the ones you see on the magazine covers all the time...
Dave: I have a question, um you were talking about volume before... I can't tell you how many times I've been at the Knitting Factory and thought I was gonna be permanently injured by how loud the music was and I was just wondering what you think that's about.
JB: Um, I don't know, [?], I always wear ear plugs!
Q: [laughter]
Dave: Well, that's something else, I know that! I know a lot of people do.
JB: You know, I don't know, some people, you know, like, a lot people have hearing loss and they play loud because they can't hear, some people just their whole-- you know, this is a touchy subject, which I'm glad you brought up...
Dave: Cuz I think there's a statement being made, but it's not necessarily conscious on the part of the performer.
JB: Um, did you all hear the question back there?
Q: [laughter]
JB: Um, I don't know, some people are coming from a place you know like their start into playing music was in a garage band and they're playing an instrument that has to be amplified to get a sound and that's where they start. You know, they just don't, sometimes it may be on purpose, like ok, I want this loud, and I want the feeling, I want to project is that you know the feeling in the inside of your body rumble when the bass drum hits or when the bass is [?] or um, I don't know, a lot of like thrash music, and the whole punk stuff, I can't really physically take it myself, I mean, my favorite way to listen and check out that stuff is on a record where I can kinda control the volume, not-- because-- but that's just me, but I know other people who-- you know, when I play with Naked City, to me, if I had to listen to Naked City, really, I don't know how people do it!
Q: [laughter]
JB: Um. You know, I, we played the last time-- I mean, the group has disbanded in terms of public performance, but the last time we played the Knitting Factory there was a speaker, right here, and there was someone just sitting there, like, you know, like right in front of it, you know, I couldn't believe it! I mean, it was killing me, and I was behind everything, you know. But like, that, in that case, that's what John wants, the whole idea of that he was trying to get across in that band is like, he wanted it to be as loud as possible, he wanted it--
Dave: But is he wearing earplugs too?
JB: No, no. I was the only one-- well, everybody made fun of me first for wearing those things, saying "what have you got in your ear, bubblegum?" um but a couple of the other guys started wearing them, you know it's not--
Dave: Cuz I feel that when I'm in the audience and the musicians are wearing earplugs on the stage, and it's loud as hell, I feel like I'm being agressed by the musicians.
JB: You probably are.
Dave: They're not doing that on purpose, then I think, if they're doing it on purpose, and they want to make a statement about the volume of society, the aggression in society, I can understand that intellectually, but i don't want to hear it.
JB: Yeah...
Dave: Um, and I don't-- I just really find it hard to understand...
JB: It depends who it is, some people don't, aren't even aware of it, that's just the way they learned how to play. Just like, you know, a long time ago, the first seminar I did, you know, I had the guy, a drummer, it was just a drum class, and we had a guy, I said play some time, and he sat down, and you know [plays time on drumset: one TWO three FOUR, cymbals on every quarter, all loud] you know, he did that! [laughter] like that was like my first workshop... i shit! [laughter] i didn't know what to do, and then i talked to the guy and i had to figure out, why does he do that? you know, and it wasn't bad, it wasn't bad, you know he had good time, the time was good, but i was just wondering, you know i asked him, could you play a different tempo or a different volume, and he really didn't understand what i was talking about. and, um [someone in audience makes "stupid-person" sound] you know, no, this guy was not a dummy either, really a smart guy, so i approached him, like, what do you listen to, and all he listened to was david lee roth like the real pop, the most popular rock and roll, that's what he listened to. um, so, i kind of like asked him to check-- to just figure out where they came from, ok, david lee roth, i think the drummer, his name was Greg Bissonette, you know Greg Bissonette also played with Maynard Ferguson's big band, you know. And I just kind of brought that into view, and then he kind of listened to a big band -- he had never heard a big band thing before. And then, you know, it-- he started to see a connection, it kind of starts seeping into him, that music didn't just come out of nowhere, it didn't just happen, it came-- it was a progression from something else, so you know, then he started listening to other things and it made a difference in his playing, you know, he started working on it-- of course he didn't have it down in a week or anything, but um you know i think that just depends on what the band is, and you have to ask each one like after you hear them, just ask em, why is that loud? Does it have to be that loud? And that's just, the answers for that one is different as there are, as there are the number of bands.
Q: Yeah, it concerned me, when you said-- I saw this concert, this last Naked City, and I wondered when you play if you're aware of the emotional impact that the music has on the audience and in a way, um, does it change the way you play?
JB: there's so much going on on the bandstand for, like in that band, i'm really the conductor of the band, every uh let's say a song lasts about a minute, right? within a minute i've got like up to maybe ten stylistic different sylistic changes to make, and i-- there-- some of em involve, as well as stylistic changes, time signatures that don't relate easily. um, I'm-- there's so much going on there i can't really pay attention, i can't even look out in the audience, it's my job to make sure that everybody else in the band knows where I'm at, because that's-- a lot of the songs are nothing but noise, like the keyboard player just has his hand down until he hears me do a certain sound. if i don't do that sound at the right time, the whole music will fall apart, and that's happened and everybody knows it, and uh, so, i know, you know, afterwards, a lot of people come up and say, yeah, this really made a different or i'm really knocked out, or whatever, or i hated it, i just think it's awful. and i know, i am aware to a slight degree, the heavy impact, and again that's what john's focus it goes back to i think he's interested in presentation moreso than exhibiting the depth of getting into uh soloing over a song.
Q: how did you rehearse that? i mean how did you bring in the tunes?
JB: Um, well, we rehearse on the-- like when we do a tour in europe, um this also was physically challenging-- one nighters, ride a train for anywhere from 4 to 5 sometimes 10 hours, then you get off an go to the concert and a soundcheck for us would last three hours, because that's when we'd rehearse new tunes, and, so we rehearse for three hours, then we'd get a bite to eat and then it would take 40 minutes just to get-- arrange the set and then we'd play. uh, and in the beginning we just got together at a rehearsal studio, john had about 60 pieces of music, and we just went through them, one right after the other. and uh you know it was pretty confusing at first. cuz again this band you know i was playing drums the keyboard player, uh wayne horvitz was from a whole other genre, fred frith, um again like he was coming from a whole different, the art rock scene, he's a prolific composer for dance troupes and everything and he's an amazing guitarist -- he was playing bass in it. Bill Frisell, you know, he's coming from a different place. And John, who as a player is mainly coming from an improvisor point of view. So, it was pretty strange, we'd try something and it would just fall apart and we'd keep going and gradually um it was about trusting, again, trusting what the composer wants, like john said, look, i want you to play mbup-mbup-mbup-mbup-mbup as fast as you can, and i thought, that's horrible! i don't want to do that! and we still-- we fought all the time, and um, and then, as time went on, yeah, it's his band [taps head to represent thought; laughter from audience]! trust him! you know, he wrote the music, it's his concept, trust what he does and you know don't worry if it doesn't feel ok at first, you might learn something. and the more i did that, the better everything went, and i could say for the rest of the group too, you know, because they had their problems too. but i was on the hot seat, most of that band relied on me coming in here, if they heard a brush that meant [?]...
Q: [?] Billy the Kid suite, [?] I was just wondering what that was like... I mean, how it [?] cuz what I mean it [?]
[What's the deal with "Billy the Kid" from Frisell's "Have a Little Faith" album? It sounded real straight.]
JB: Um, no, the only liberties he took was just the orchestration. And in fact, there was no drum part, and uh i mean there was the original of course had a drum part but, you know, his concept was to do it and have a few sections where everybody is improvising on the material, the way improvise. and the way we rehearsed it was, you know, he wrote like a-- he studied the piano scores, and listened to a lot of different versions of it, and then wrote out, figured out ok i want the bass to cover this part ... [TAPE FLIP] ... his concept was to add a drumset to it ... piece of music ... rin the ight register, how they spoke, you know, a lot of times you don't-- you can't really tell those things when you're actually playing. you know, the bottom register might sound muddy ... you never know, you have to hear it first, and then change it around until it sounds ... that's how [?] approched [?] i think most of that was like first take. ...
uh, any other questions? uh, anybody wants to play?
Q: what about a drum solo?
[everyone wants him to play drums]
ok, um, who has a drum key? um... um, [?] are the other-- any other questions at all? like, i was [?]-- you know, i thought, like everybody here plays a lot, or are there composers, are there people here who don't play? [...] so everybody here plays an instrument, right? and i-- i assume, then, judging from the questions, that nobody has any problem playing? [laughter] i gotta to get your names! [laughter] um, i know there are, you know, some situations, like, where things might be difficult as a player?
Q: I think from the point of view of someone who, I came here not playing so much jazz, and more, I, I would love to play and sort of do things that are [less?] straight-ahead and a little more free, and experiment, take a lot of chances, [?] cuz that's what, I mean, that's what, it's like, i don't know as much of the straight-ahead, you know, [?], I would like to do that, that would be [?]
JB: So your question is?
Q: I guess I'm just saying that, um, I don't know, it's not a question it's a statement.
JB: Oh, ok.
Q: It's that I think it's a good opportunity to [?] the other side instead of focusing on the more inside thing, a more rhythmic approach, sort of [?]
JB: Well, um, I don't know, I think that-- Don't exclude yourself from anything. Just check something out before you pass judgment on it, before you-- Like, uh, check out playing, you know, check out-- I don't know exactly what kind of courses you're doing here, but within your classes or ensembles, you're mainly dealing with playing straight-ahead, you know, really check it out.
Q: I love it, it's just that's mostly what we do.
JB: And you're interested in the other side--
Q: Yeah, the other thing, yeah.
JB: Yeah, I would-- you just said-- one thing that's pretty important, though, it doesn't have to be either/or, i mean that's the mistake, to me, in my opinionated opinion, i mean, a lot of people have this very stern, like you're either in or you're either out. That's bullshit. there's room for it all. Yeah?
Q: [?] Say you were in a situation, you're playing in an ensemble and you don't think people are lisetning to you very closely. What are ways that you use to make sure or to encourage listening to each other and everyone to listen to you as a drummer, when you're playing?
JB: Um, drown them out? [laughter] No, um, well, you can't make somebody listen. You can try to hint, you know, like you can just, you can do things like with the dynamics, uh, you know, seriously you could drown them out, you know, you could lay out, um, you could do something with the time, like take it into a different feel, um, you could jump up and down and make funny noises-- I mean, like, I've kind of tried all of those and they all work, you know, it just depends on the context, who you're playing with. But you can't make someone else do something, but you can try, you know, and those are ways, um, you know, if you're playing in a funk groove and it's a constant backbeat going on, you know, and the soloist is going on and on and on and on and on and just you feel like wait a minute it's like this is turning into like, they should get a rhythm machine or a sequencer, instead of-- you know you can do things like don't affect the intensity of the groove but just don't do a backbeat. you know. you know, the way like in, uh, hiphop stuff, or in the stuff that's all about mixing, a lot of times, they'll just mix out the backbeat with the rest of the track is going on. you know, stuff like that. cuz that's a big change, if you're not listening-- you know, i mean you'd have to be deaf not to notice that kind of stuff. that's like, in that situation, in a more subtle situation, like if you're playing jazz or more softer type of music, um, you know just change the texture. if you've been playing on the ride cymbal for a while, play on a closed tight sound, change up the sound, dosomething to kind of wake people up or something?
Q: [you have your own band?]
JB: Yeah, it's a trio, tenor saxophone, trombone.
Q: [why that instrumentation?]
JB: How did I choose that group?
Q: Yeah.
JB: Well, for me, as a drummer, i wasn't, um, I always felt bad about myself cuz i didn't have the information that a piano player, most piano players have, like chord changes, being able to hear and name, hey, that was Dm7 going to this, with a tritone substitution, and this, you know, that's not part of my skills and I always was under the impression, ah, that you had to have that before you took any kind of leadership [?] and um, so, that's part of things that are difficult for me in thinking about having a band, thinking that if I had band I would have to write tunes like Herbie Hancock, they gotta to be that kind of, gotta be on that level, that sophisticated, and i look in the mirror, that's not going to happen, not for me. um, and also at the time i had already been playing with a lot of people, and i thought if i'm going to do something on my own, that's personal, i don't want it to sound like a band that i already worked with, and i don't want to become a sideman in my own group. so, i figured ok, who do i-- what instruments do i usually play with, and usually, uh, most of the time i usually played with rhythm section, full "normal" rhythm sections: a bass player, some kind of chordal instrument, uh sometimes percussion, ah, you know, soloists. a lush sound, you know, two or three horns if not a chordal instrument. um always a bass player and then guitar player or piano player, a lot of playing with stuff like that, and i thought, ok, for my group, i do that in other people's groups, so i won't have a bass player, you know, it'll get-- it'll let off certain tones of the drums, that i hear when i'm close up to it, it'll allow room for that, sonically. and i thought, you know, playing a lot with Bill Frisell, who's got this huge sound on the guitar, and he plays like these incredibly lush chords, you know, it's like really, it's like heaven, you know, when you're up there and you hear that sound. um i figure well, i want to go as far away from that as possible, because if i get a guitar-- if at that time when i was putting the group together, if i got a guitar player and a bass player, i'd be trying to make it sound like bill frisell's band, and that's like pissing up rope, you know, it's-- there's no point, i don't think. so i forced myself to kick my own butt, you know, a sound which was as far away from it as possible. and also, to do with dynamics, instruments that were lung powered, so that's why i chose horns. and eventually that's why i chose not to play with a sound system or anything, just to let the sound of the instruments the way there are come across, to try and make use of this sound, that was very-- it's not a lush sound at all, it's not a comforting sound, but i wanted to take that and try and make it musical, that's how i -- in terms of the people, why i chose, um, number one i wanted to find people that were able and available to put some time in to like, rehearse. and, that's a problem a lot of times, when people have their own career already. and i looked around and just thought back in my memory who i'd played with before that was kind of interesting and wasn't just coming from a jazz direction, but was interested in, you know, a lot of different things, and Steve Swell, i'd played with in that context, and i liked how-- his imagination as a trombonist. so i thought that would be a good element, you know, cuz-- he's not really, um, you know, like, the authentic straight-ahead jazz trombone player, but that's not really what i wanted, for the sound. i like the way he just-- he can deal with texture, he can make things happen, he's not afraid to express himself on the instrument. and the saxophone, i was kinda looking for somebody that had a background in knowing how to play tunes and uh stuff like that, but was also into more textural type things, and Ellery Eskelin, somebody who i'd seen playing with this really weird group one time, years ago, and i just kind of remembered that, and he lives in my building, and i bumped into him. i asked em and they said they were interested. so that's, that's how that came to be... phew... um, so i-- you want me to play?
Q: [yeah]
JB: Anybody know what time it is?
Q: Two o'clock.
JB: Um, just give me one minute...
[adjusting drums]
4/4 x 3 groove: |x xx xx xx x|and groove it does! The main "melodic motif" is something vaguely like:
1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 |x xx xx xx x|x xx xx xx x|x xx xx xx x| | | xxx~~~~~~~ |
where ~ represents something like subdivision of quarter note by 8, maybe? Well, something like that. He layered all sorts of different things over the groove, and they all sounded great, very natural, not "technical".
JB: Thank you! Um, any question?
Q: Before you started did you have preconceived ideas of what you were going to play, or--
JB: No. Do you want me to be honest with you?
Q: Yeah.
JB: No, I just felt like, yeah, just, play. [? ?]
Q: [How do you practice?]
JB: Yeah, this might help, or it might be-- if I'm getting too far off base somebody just stop me, ok? um, my basic approach is like from A to-- the distance from A to B, what's the shortest distance?
Nas: A straight line.
JB: Yeah, just, you know, so, it's kind of like, for me, on one hand it's complicated on the other hand it's really simple. like um, if i hear something on a record, i'll listen to that record, like, um, you know like the way folk music or any kind of music that's passed down from just someone playing it and you have the instrument and you watch them and just imitate them. it's like very direct, it's not about you know read this book first, master this first, it's kind of like just put your finger there, do this then, i kind of have that relationship, like when i practice, and when i started to-- i would like put my ear, since i didn't, uh, have people to sit and watch like close up to play, i would do it to a record, or the radio, or the televion. um, i would listen, um what's an example I could give you, um, does anyone know a show called "the wild wild west"? it's an old, old show now. anyway, the background music to it was a guy playing brushes on a snare drum and i always loved that, so every week when it would come on, I'd this close to the TV just listening, every week, and week after week i would just start to you know, get the melody in my head, you know kinda already know what the melody was, and just kinda whistle along with it or something and play along with it. basically, that's it. that's really how i learned to play. ah, you know, there are technical things that you know you-- um sometimes, like i had a couple teachers along the way but they-- the information i got from them was more about like technical information, like how to read music, and stuff like that. um but as far as playing, and learning how to play and interact with people it's like i would do that thing with the television or i'd make a little tape recording of it and just listen back to it over and over without even playing, just listening to it, til i would kinda like get a sense of it without the tape, you know, and then i would play it, and play along with it. so i would do that with records too. and always to things that i really liked. i mean, that's what attracted me to the-- you know, i did it because i loved it, there was no academic reason for me to do it at that time, and still today, you know like, like when that record "janet." came out... janet jackson [laughter] when that record came out, ah, i mean i just flipped over that record, i don't know why, but i really just liked the record, so i just picked out like my favorite tracks and i just made a whole tape, both sides, of nothing but those tracks going over and over and over...
Q: What were the songs?
JB: Pardon me?
Q: What were the songs that you liked?
JB: Uh, I'm horrible at names... Um... "Where Are You Now?" Um, that, and some, like toward the end of the disk, there are some, and in the very beginning. i just love that record, the whole-- everything about it. but yeah, um "Where Are You Now?" I think is the name of it.
Q: What is it you love about that record?
JB: It's pretty s[?]-- the harmonies, those guys Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis, i don't know how they do what they do, the process, but it's pretty sophisti-- some pretty sophisticated things going on, the orchestrations, the voices, just the song forms, and they way the harmony is, a lot of times there's like bassline going, but it's not, um, it's not defining the tonal pitch of the song, and i think that's great. and it's beautiful, i meanit's like, i enjoy listening to that on the same level as like gil evans, you know, something like that. yeah, and it's pretty soulful, and her intonation is great, and the time feel, the feels on it are really great, they're soulful, it's really, ah, i don't know why, but that one song in particular, for me, it's very soulful, the melody and the way the groove is, it's not just bam-bam-bam-bam, every bar filled with some kind weird stuff, the way some things are, it's a lot of space, the phrasing is-- but anyhow, to get back to your original question, i was just listening to that over and over and over and would play along with it, you know. and once i got-- felt comfortable with that basic thing, i could hear where, what the groove was about, then i would like orchestrate it differently, you know like just just play the feel but using different sounds, like instead of a cymbal, hitting the bass drum on the wood, you know, the wood part of the bass drum, or, you know, just playing with the sound, but using the feel. and how i practice, you know, um, at one point i practiced like 8 to 10, 12 hours a day, and i'd have a, as far as, you know many many years ago, i'd have a routine, like first 3 hours i'll practice you know just warmup stuff, then i would play along with records, you know just stack a bunch of records and play along for an hour, couple of hours, something, take a break, or-- and then um, you know, i'd have it organized that way, and then, you know, as i got older i didn't have that kind of time, time to practice, so you nkow, i did everything i'm sure that all of you do, you know go in to the practice room and waste a lot of time. [laughter] you know, noodle around and think you're like setting the world of fire, and you hear a tape back ten years later, and it's you know, you puke. [laughter] you know, i went through a lot of that and you know, kinda getting -- i was pretty disciplined, though, i kinda disciplined myself, you know, like i wanted to learn how to read, so, um... this guy taught me just in terms of rhythmic values, he showed me a way to kind of break down any kind of, you know how to read a rhythm so that you know where each count is, whether it's a rest or a note, you know, so that you actually know what count goes to this rest and what count goes with-- um, i mean, if you want i can go into that, but if you don't i'll just skip over it. i would just work on sightreading sometimes. i would take a piece of music i'd never seen and just try and read the rhythms. it could be out of a fake book, or whatever. and just play through it once, and that's it. the point being not to stop, not to make it better, just to play and um, like for real, like if i was playing a classical piece, just a-- trying to read through a snare drum etude, no matter how many mistakes, from start to finish. that's how to work on like sight-reading. and you do that every day, just for, you know, ten minutes, you're gonna see an improvement in that skill. that's anything, any area you work on. so how i practice, you know, i go through a phase where i really want to practice riding on a cymbal, and those were-- i'd just do that, you know, for like a half hour, something, work on technique a little bit, and then um...
Pretty early on i would hear all these-- i used to hang out with piano players, i never hung out with drummers, because where i grew up there weren't any my own age, that were interested, to talk about music, so i ended up hanging out with older player, piano players and guitar players. and i would always kind of hear about, you know they were never listening to drum solos or anything, they were listening to the whole group, and the way the tune was written, so that kind of became part of my practice then, is just to sit down and listen without playing. and i think that's really, um, that's essential, if you're, i think. i think too many of us develop so much here [hands] or whatever [legs/feet], develop an amazing amount of ability, technically, and it's like, what are you gonna do with it? when you have it you can't help but to use it. i'm not saying, don't go for it, don't try to get it, but if you don't balance that kind of, um, you know, if all you do is working on your chops, and you're not listening to how that could be applied, you're gonna end up, um, pretty lonely. i mean, it's lonely doing this stuff for real, anyhow, but it's really lonely, you know, if you're not balancing your diet of technique-oriented stuff with just sitting down and listening to a piece of music seriously. not just surface things, you know, but-- and i think the key to being able to do that is start with what you like. you don't have to go analyze Stravinsky, or you know, ah, the most avant-garde string quartet written, or-- you have to go from what you like, what initially turns you on. if you're not doing that, you're not gonna be interested, it's not gonna be fun. and that's, that's how i've always practiced. you know, by doing things that i was attracted to it helped me alot about other things that i wasn't initially attracted to. when i first started playing, ah, you know, i thought ringo starr was, that was the end of being a drummer. [laughter] and then, you know, you find out about people, you know the more popular people, doesn't always mean they're better, sometimes, you know, they're really great, sometimes they're not great but, popularity really doesn't have a lot to do with a person's work, um, but you know as a drummer, Gene Krupa was very popular, you know, still in the sixties, you know, if you played drums, Gene Krupa was like-- everybody knew who Gene Krupa was, all around the world, and he was a great musician, he did a lot, like for me, ah, through him i found out about Buddy Rich, right? Buddy Rich, that inspired me as a drummer, because rock and roll at the time, to play the drums, i didn't, i was, i wanted to see the drummer do something, i wanted to hear the drummer really play, and i never got to see that in the bands that... and the first time I saw Buddy Rich, it was like, wow! you know, that's-- it's amazing that he can do all that just from a crappy drum set, you know and that interested me, i wanted to really learn how to play that. and from him, you know, you go through a phase where you get every record or you borrow every record, and i started noticing, he was on this record, i was seeing, you know, they had these old jazz records, Norman Granz, Jazz at the Philharmonic, and some of thes had Buddy Rich's name, and I would, I was a kid, I'd see it and I'd get it. I'd read the other names and I had no idea who they were, you know, Charlie Parker, Bud Powell, you know. And I got introduced to those guys, through that, I mean not personally, but musically. You know, so if you keep-- Wherever you start, it's ok, if it's Janet Jackson, or if it's, you know, uh, whatever the latest rap thing is, or the latest whatever, that's ok, there's nothing, you know, there's nothing wrong with any of it, or if it's Miles Davis, you know. You just have to be interested in it, that's the main key. And if you pay attention you know, you'll find oh, miles davis, herbie hancock, [?], check out one of his things, you know, oh that's one of herbie hancock records, who's the drummer, who's the bass player, Walt Jackson [sp??], who's the druummer, Mike Clark, and where are they from, uh, San Francisco. you know you kind of make all these connections, you know, find out a lot just without even trying. and that's kind of how i practice. a bit long-winded answer, sorry, but that's [?]... Yeah?
Q: I'd like to know if you ever went to music school anywhere and what you think about musical school in generl?
JB: I didn't go to music school, I went to Berklee.
Q: [laughter]
JB: Um, I went to Berklee College of Music, um, you know, i couldn't wait to-- i'm from virginia, richmond virginia and around, you know, at the time when i was like 16 or 17 it was like the tail end of an era when people would come through, like [?], Cannonball Adderly, Jimmy Smith. Yeah, I was a bit too young to be able to go to the clubs and to see you know players and a lot of my contact was people sometimes 2 or 3 times older than me, or 4 times, you know, and i couldn't wait to get the hell out of my home town, just to be like, you know, with people like you. you're all interested in music, people my own age, so at that time there were about two schools, Berklee and North Texas State, [?] kind of jazz [?], and i wasn't really interested too much, you know, in being a classical percussionist, [?]. and um so i went there for a few semesters, and i can say-- did you want to know about that?
Q: um i just i was the concept of going to school to uh learn music, [?] you know in general, i thought the whole idea of studying [?]
JB: well, i tell you one thing, the people who are coming here that live outside the united states, it's the only way they have, to come-- i think it's incredible, that that format exists, that people can come from Germany, and China, and Japan, and hang out with, you know, hang out with you, hang out with uh [?], um you know a lot of times, [?] so this is kind of like a way to do it. in terms of learning the music, learning how to play in a school, you're not gonna do it. this is my opinion, this is not the gospel. but, uh, i think you're gonna get some really great information, especially, you know like the school is really fortunate to have reggie here, who's, you know, everybody knows where he's come from, and what he still does. um, that's invaluable, to be close to the-- somebody like that. they're giving you information but you're not gonna figure out how to put it to use until you get out there, and do it and uh i can just say Billy Martin told me a long time ago, when i was a little kid and i kinda went and he was working with stan getz and i, um-- it's when i was in berklee, and one of the teachers had played bass with stan getz years ago, he said "go sit in with stan getz, go to his job, he's playing at this club, go sit in with him", [?] and i go there and it's Dave Holland playing bass and Albert Daly, who's a brilliant piano player, he playing piano, Billy was playing drums. you know, I went to the bar, i was like shaking like this and went up to Billy Martin, "excuse me, could, you know, would you mind if i just played a ballad, could i sit in, play a ballad or something?" i was trembling and he said "sure, hey, it's ok with me, just ask stan!" you know, so-- [laughter] and i was kinda like sitting just waiting just [?] in the dressing room back there and stan. you know was walking up front and i got up and said "excuse me mister..." and i didn't get to the word "gee, i'd li--" and he looked at me and just, like "kid, get off the stage". you know, and it was, uh, it was intense [laughter] you know, i'm sure that will happen for a lot of-- you'll run into some real assholes who do that kind of thing, ...
... [SWITCH TAPES] ...
... waiting, to play, you know. and i couldn't figure out, i was still wondering, what do professional musicians do during the day? [laughter] [? ? ? ? ?] that kind of stuff, and he could tell, i was really green, and [? ?] doesn't matter what it is, take it. and i did, i went back home, and i ended up, i played with an 80 year old piano player, playing like honky-tonk piano, fashion shows where all they wanted was a drummer, you know playing a beat so they could walk down, doing sound effects sometimes for shows, like little neighborhood shows, i'm not talking bigtime, but any kind of experience you can get, take it, because um that's what you use, it's like you get this stuff and put it in your back pocket and you keep drawing on it. um, you know, any different kind of music you have an opportunity to play, don't worry if you don't know everything about that music, just play it, you'll learn! you won't learn any faster if you just sit at home with the best video or the best book, it's not gonna do you anything compared to getting out there and playing in a situation. and i'm not talking big name, i'm not talking, you know, um, record contract. i'm talking about whatever is front of you, and a lot of people think that i just started playing in concerts and, that's not true, i've done, i can't tell you how many, um, birthday parties I've played, how many jobs I've played where it's nothing to do with art, self-expression, it's a job, you have to learn certain skills, you learn how to follow a leader, you learn how to keep people dancing if that's what your job is. and all that-- i mean, i still use all that stuff today. you know, things that i learned from records when i first started playing, i still use. it's like, i don't throw out anything for the sake of something new, because there's no point, you can use it all... Yeah?
Q: can you tell us, can you talk briefly about getting different kinds of sounds out of the drums. usually like, hitting a cymbal, usually like most drummers will get a certain number of sounds out of it, there's really almost infinite possibilities, [? ? ? ? ?] you have a theory to work with that, so i was wondering if you could share some of that?
JB: ok, um, would you mind if i wait a little bit, since that's really like a drummer's thing, and i'd like to field some more, like if there's any other issues that would like apply to all of us. so i mean, i will get to it. um, well, i wanted to get something-- does anybody want to play at all, or to play specifically to deal with a certain, uh, you know, you want to play with me or play with-- to talk about something. cuz i'm going strictly from you, like i say, i don't have a script. so, would you like to do that? or would you like to keep giving question? or, ok, so who would, who's got something they want to play, or play about. well, who said play?!?
Q: [?]
JB: i'd like to do this mainly not-- not just to play but to bring up some stuff that might be of help to us all. you got something you--
Q: maybe there's something that you would like to play that some instruments, whoever gets up there, [?] try to reach for something, cuz [?]
JB: uh-huh.
Q: [?]
JB: um, ok, um... what's that?
Q: I said, I'm a drummer but I'd like to hear you play.
JB: ok, well, what-- who do we have that wants to play? what instruments? [guitar] uh [piano] ok, um ... anybody-- would anybody else like to play? anybody else? what do you play?
Q: [alto]
JB: ok. what do you play?
Q: [?]
JB: ok. alright, don't let me forget, ok? you guys know each other?
Q: [no]
JB: alright, so what's common ground, here? [what tune to play...] i don't want to say anything, i'll just let you guys play. um... is there a bass player? that wants to play?
Q: [there are bass players, but no bass, but they could get a bass from upstairs, but they don't want to or something...]
JB: ok. well, it doesn't matter, if you want to play, fine, like I said...
[tuning]
JB: ok, um.
[tuning]
Rob: [mutters something to me about Game of Death]
JB: alright, i tell you what, alright, we'll just stick to real basics, we'll just play...
Rob: "Osaka Bondage"!
PB: Pardon?
Rob: "Osaka Bondage"!
JB: ok [gesturing for Rob to come up on stage]...
Rob: uh... [doesn't have his guitar] I'll do vocals...
Q: [really?]
Rob: I'd need a mic. If they'll really play "Osaka Bondage" I'll really do vocals.
JB: um, just real quick, does any-- does anybody have anything they want to bring up about what was going on, or anything. i mean, this is the place to do it, that-- on gigs and stuff nobody does it, and i guess-- you know, the thing about gigs is you just play, but i'd like you to take advantage of the-- if there's something going on that you saw or wanted to see or something, bring it up now, this is the place to like get it out, and talk about it, and do something about it. um...
Q: [?]
JB: ok. well, does anybody have any comments?
Q: sounded great without the bass.
JB: ok.
Q: i really liked your accompanying [? ? ?] on the set [? ?] your accompaniment [?] everything was really different, really clear, and that i felt that it was realy geographical, it was like your solo, [? ?] kind of matched [?] sort of develop into the that, or really make a point of trying to do that?
JB: I just wanted to-- I just wanted to be a musician. and having to deal with being a musician and playing that instrument [points to drumset], it's pretty challenging, so that, you know, that's kind of what you're hearing. you know like, that solo piece, i'm not sure, i should have said, it's-- it was like a blues, i mean i was just going off of a blues form, and i played a head then i would um you know solo and then you return back to the head, you know, standard format. yeah, thank you. i mean i do try to keep that in mind, like different soloists, to make a difference, to make it not different just for the sake of being different, but it's hard when it just keeps going and you might be playing a lot of stuff, but after a while it becomes like a monotone thing: it all cancels out, and you might as well be listening to a hum of feedback or something. so, um, i think that's not only imp-- that's really important for drummers but other instruments too, you know, if you're comping or if you're soloing. ah, soloists, you know, it's real important just to breathe. you know, it's-- it's what you ain't playing is-- it's as important as what you are playing. the space that you leave can really accentuate the one note that you play. if you're filling every space up in a measure, nobody's-- you might be playing amazing things but it's not gonna sound like it, it's not gonna project-- it's not even gonna project to the other people that you're playing with. and so, um, that's-- i think that's a pretty important thing to remember just when you're playing in a situation with other people. you know, you have-- you have the chance to make something happen, take it. you know, don't sit-- don't stop thinking, don't, you know, don't pass up that opportunity. because that's, i mean, when it's right, it's the best feeling in the world. um, any other comments, questions?
Q: do you play radically different when you play without a bass player, in terms of the bass drum?
JB: um, it just depends what's going on with the people i am playing with. and, yeah before i forget, that's another thing, you know, when you get together here, don't not play because there isn't a piano player or because there isn't a drummer around. um you know like when you get together with each other and play, uh who said a group has to have a bass and a drum and a guitar, or a piano, you know, and-- who said? who?
Q: they said.
JB: who?
Q: they said!
JB: who's they?
Q: who knows!
JB: yeah, right! you know, um, i mean especially in playing this kind of music, the important thing that everybody needs to have in their gut is a time feeling. you know, if you're playing music that revolves around a time, a pulse, that's the only common thread that everybody on the bandstand shares. does't matter what instrument you play, you know, i'm playing this, you might not know anything about this, i might know anything about that. but one thing, we gotta come together, about the time. and any music that revolves around time, in any genre, or any style, any place on the world, that is a common thread, that's the common thread that can link Ray Charsle to Wille Nelson to, uh, you know, Janet Jackson to, you know, whoever. It's time, you know. And when you're dealing with music that involves time, take it on, get a chance to play with someone, a guitar and a saxophone player, get together, don't wait for a drummer, you know, play a tune, play it like you're making music, rather than playing without a bass player and a drummer. make music with whatever you've got, you know. um anything, any other questions? things that you know, since it's right after we played...
Q: [no response]
JB: oh [laughs] come on!
um, one thing i'd like to bring up is just, uh, with playing, this happens alot like um with electric vs. non-electric and stuff like that, especially with guitar players and bass players. um kind of-- you know in this situation when-- when, you know, it's informal and you're just playing, try to be sensitive to the dynamics of the lowest dynamic range instrument, that's in the group. do you understand what i mean? um, like in this case the piano was really-- like the piano and the guitar, it's a lot of conflicts that can happen there, you know. um, one thing that happens to me, when i play with piano and there's no mic or anything, that's how I like-- i think everybody should try this, too, just to get an idea what it's like to play-- you know, when you're playing with a piano, play with just a piano, don't use a monitor. see what it's like to play and accompany that, whether you're a drummer, a sax player, or whatever. you know, play with-- just so it's-- so you're not playing with the idea of knowing that somebody can fix it in the mix. you know, i, uh, that's the thing that like i think today like a lot of, ah, people coming up, everbody has a sound system and everybody has a monitor, you know. and that's great, but i think it's also really valuable to put some time in and learn how to play with-- with instruments, just from yourself. you know, and for instruments that, you know, like a guitar, try experimenting, you know, like i know a lot of the effects and the chorusing sounds-- don't be afraid to play without that. You know, um it's not-- I'm not singling-- I'm just lookging at you cuz you play guitar. Don't be afraid to play without the lush reverb sound, you know, try it sometime, like turning off all the effects, and just, you know, getting the instrument to be heard but thinking more about, like, the music rather than so much the tone quality. I'm not saying doing only that, but do some of it to balance it out with all the effects, i mean from my vantage point, their are people who have a sound, and then there's hordes of people who sound like the people who work to get their sound. on any instrument. there's eight million david sanborns walking around. there's eight million Dave Weckls walking around. sound-wise, you know what I'm saying, I'm not talking about playing but-- or sometimes playing too, you know. Try to find something that you like, like if you like Pat Metheny's guitar sound, if you like Bill Frisell's guitar sound, or Mike Stern's guitar sound, or Vernon Reid's guitar sound, or whoever it is, take it and if you like it, steal it! but think about it, and make it your own, don't just repeat it. eventually you gotta do that, because if you don't, and you think you're gonna get called becuase you can play like Vernon Reid or-- it doesn't really work that way. if somebody wants those people they're gonna call them, and if they do call you, after a while you're gonna get pretty sick and tired of hearing "hey, do the-- uh, can you get that Pat Metheny sound?" you're gonna get tired of that if you're trying to develop yourself. you'll hear, just any-- any musician who's done that, like Art Blakey, when I was kid, he had an interview in Downbeat, and that's-- that was the biggest thing that he was telling everybody, is that, you know, people should like steal from each other, you know, listen and steal from each other, the best people do, you know, but think-- go the extra mile, don't just sit and learn Miles Davis' licks, or learn Billy uh, I mean Dennis Chambers' licks. Don't just sit and do that and stop there. What did you do with it? What's your next step? Put yourself into it, and then, um, then it comes out and it's you. Sure, it's ok if you can tell, like ok that sounds a little bit like this or a little bit like that, of course, there's no need to be pretentious about it, like "I'm a born genius", you know, "I was just born with a drum stick and it just happened, and I always played this way and never listened to anybody." I mean, there are people who say that. And if you put a lie-detector test on em, you know, it'd be like [gestures to indicate freaking out lie detector, laughing from audience]... Yeah, that's, uh, that's something that I see, you know, I get a lot of tapes from people, and I hear-- like the music is real good, and the playing might be good, but everybody is like tends to get hung up on sounding like whatever the hip sound is of the moment. I mean, it used to-- for a long time, it was reverb. You never heard a drum without like [clap ahhhhhhhh]. If you learn to play with that, you're gonna freak out when you don't have it. You know, if you, if you, experience, if you experience playing without that, that's the real sound of the instrument. You know, you're not gonna, anything you add is just icing on the cake. You know, so any instrument, guitar, and bass in particular-- bass, i think, a lot of situations, like, um, if you're playing upright bass, or with upright bass players, try playing sometime without the amp. I'm not s-- I'm not one of these retro guys, that's into, you know, like the tuxedo bit and that whole thing, I'm not one of those-- I'm not advocating that...
Q: [?]
JB: Yeah, right. I'm just saying try some of things because uh, as a player it's invaluable to experience playing with a bass player, just from the sound that's coming from the bass. And if you play upright bass, check out what it feels like to play without the amp. There's another kind of intensity, when you're really pulling a string, and it-- that's what projects to a drummer. Yeah?
Q: You said that when you were younger you played with older people, do you, now that you're a little older, do you get the opportunity-- do you give the opportunity to younger people to play with you?
JB: Uh,
Q: How old are you?
JB: I'm 38.
Q: ok. ooh! [laughter]
JB: You know, I'm not out there, I don't teach a lot, I don't do this kind of stuff a lot, I mean, that's the way I would do it. And I have just one band so I'm not like really in that position, you know, I'm not like-- I don't play with that many different people right at this point. Mainly, like my own-- my own agenda at this point is like you know working with the group that I travel with and then writing music and trying to keep the band together. you know, for me, it's different for everybody, it takes a lot of time, and energy, cuz I'm-- you know, I haven't been a leader that long, it's a whole different thing than being a sideman, so most of my time is spent is doing that, so I'm not like on the scene, in jam sessions, or playing a lot. Um, you know, the local scene, I mean, there-- Well, this month I'm gonna be at Cafe Mogador, playing with John Zorn in a group, that's kind of like-- I can't describe it, you just have to check it out, it's bass-- upright bass, trumpet, alto and drums. And, you know, come by there, it's like a five buck cover, I've never been there, it's like a Moroccan place, it's called Mogador cafe. But in terms of playing-- but I'm not like, there, what I meant by playing with older musicians, is like, uh, what they call club dates, and stuff like that, like I would just get called, and the musicians on the job were like someone in their sixties, seventies, eighties, and a lot of times, like I've been in situations where really young people come on the band, like substitutes, and that-- you know, and that-- that's how I'm in that position. It doesn't happen that often, because the groups I'm with are set bands, we have a commitment to work together in a certain direction, so I'm not like the free-lancing musician I once was. But when I say playing with older people, um, any-- you know, any way that that happens-- I mean, I don't think that's better than playing with people your own age. For me, for me, that's just all there was. I didn't have a choice.
Q: You wouldn't say that's better?
JB: I wouldn't say-- I wouldn't say that it's better, just to do that, I think you can learn a lot. But I don't think it's-- age, it really isn't about age, just about the person's focus. There are a lot of older people who are just as undisciplined as there younger, just as someone real young, who has no focus. It's not strictly about age. But, you know, if you get a chance you know to play on some job, that you think might be a weird corny job, check out who's on the job, just talk to em, find out who they are, you might be surprised, like, uh, some of th-- my early jobs, like, playing with, you know, with these dance big bands, playing for like some-- you know, coat-and-tie dance, you know, formal dance, you know, nobody would know me, i was just a little runt kid, you know, and-- and i would talk to em on a break and find out -- oh, yeah, this guy was with the big bands in the forties, he travelled around and just decided to get off the road and raise a family, you know, I mean... You know, you just learn little things, even if that-- even if just that. See what happens.
Q: [? ? ? ? ? ? ?]
JB: I try not to go-- you know, if something works really well, it works, it's already happened. To try and keep doing that, to me it's a mistake. Because, you know, you liked it, if I did that piece again, I'm already thinking, trying to remember what it was that worked, rather than relating right now. And there's not time enough to do that, for me, that's where I am. If it worked well, it's music. I mean, I've tried it, everybody does it, you know, you have a great night, you think the great night was because you played the high-hat behind his solo or something, or you layed out in this section, you know, but do it again and it has nothing to do with it, it's just about being aware of everything that goes on around you. Everybody knows who Elvin Jones is, right? One night I got-- I mean, this is another thing about being in New York, like in the second year I was here, I worked a gig at the Vanguard with Red Rodney and Ira Sullivan, it was like a bebop thing, and Elvin Jones was in the house, and I didn't know it, and I thought like I was having a horrible night, you know, [? ? ?], and at the end of the night, I'm walking over and he's talking to Red Rodney, he and Red were old friends, and I saw him I was just really like [scared] and I just wanted to hide in the sewer, and he came over to me and he said "It's you and me tonight", you know, and [?] me up and I didn't know what he was talking about but I just went with it and you know, we ended up hanging out all night, you know, just kind of went across the street to the coffe shop, ate and just walked around Chelsea until, I don't know, until about five in the morning. And this whole time I was like you know, bambambambam, what about this, what about-- you know, and um, you know, he-- one of the things that, you know, I got from dealing with him was just how totally aware he is of everthing that's going on, every move, every subtle thing. You might watch him play sometimes, and you might get a different impression, you might think he's-- whatever, you jnow. I don't know what-- I don't know what you think, but I know sometimes I've seen him and like um in the seventies and I would think oh man, he's totally out there, and uh, you know, he's tot-- you know, that's not true, he's so finely tuned, it's like-- it's like the finest piece of machinery you could ever imagine, really fine, he's got that sense. And when you develop that yourself, that-- it's-- I don't know, that's really a great place to aim for, just being totally aware of what's going on, not just the music, but the people, kind of-- you know, just because somebody doesn't play the type of music you like or doesn't play the way you like doesn't mean they're not worth getting to know. Um, I'm just saying this because I went through acting like that for a while. It took me a while to learn, you know, you meet somebody in one situation, and think uh "forget them", and then later I end up and they're the recording engineer on a record I made and uh you just never know, it's just don't give up on-- on people. Don't-- yeah, just give people a chance, that would be something that I can impart to you guys, give people a chance. Because for me, that's how I got to-- to do what I do now, which-- you know, I play creative music, like, again, it's not the most, it's not the latest CD101 popular-- popularity kind of... but I'm really happy doing the music that I do and working with the people that I do. I'm interested in, you know, continuing to grow that way. And that would have never happened if somewhere along the line people didn't give me the benefit of the doubt, give me a chance, to struggle with it. So just amongst yourselves, just kind of check that out. You know, [? ?], playing somebody's music, don't be too quick to write it off.
Q: I was just wondering if your best musical experiences have been in public or private?
JB: Oh, public, because I love to play before people. See, my background is like, you know, coming from a very poor family, my parents didn't really have, um, you know, a great life, and so, you know, when I was interested, when I got interested, in drumming, I found it was something that could make them-- you know, they kind of-- I saw a smile on their face. In my household, that was, like, precious. So for me, that's the connection I have. I'm not interested in, um, playing just for-- just to blow people away, from an isolated point of view. I mean, at one point, I wanted to be the best, I wanted to be the fastest, I wanted to be, you know ...
... [FLIP SIDES] ...
[? ? ?] focus [? ?] music [?] yeah?
Q: [? ? ? ? ? ? ?]
JB: Um, yeah, you know, well, at times, you know, like i get calls to play with, like, Jim Hall -- I think he teaches here, right? or, i don't know, is he still affiliated? [yeah] -- you know I used to work with him a lot but what happens is just a scheduling conflict, you know. I mean, we decided to commit, like Bill Frisell and I, we met [? ? ?], I mean, really like each other, on and off the stand, and we wanted to play as much together as possible. you know the idea of a band, when Bill was thinking of starting a band, you know, we kinda talked about it as a serious-- like, let's stick together for a while. that's what i was looking for, at that point, and when you do that, you have to make it, you know, sometimes, you get a call for something that's a little bit better money in the short run but to do it, you make the money and then what do you do with the money? You can't buy-- you can't always buy that thing that you get from constantly working. so that, so--
Q: [? ? ? ?]
JB: Oh yeah, yeah, I would do that, yeah, I have-- you know I haven't like forsaken-- I haven't like snipped it off, in terms of wanting to do it [? ?]
Q: [? ? ? ?]
JB: Um, yeah, I'm not really involved in the recording of it, that way, you know, but as far as playing, you know, like I love to-- I love that music, I love that feeling -- with good people. I love, you know, like on-- I love to do that. It's just that-- again I, you know, like I, if I'm working on something to get, you know, to get your own band, you know, rehearsed, and all that kind of stuff, you start doing it, it's like an addiction for me, you know, yeah, do this, and then do that, and do that, and all of the sudden you end back on kind of a merry-go-round. At some point it's almost like a nostalgic kind of thing, you know, I love, you know, just the, sit there and do that, play a backbeat. But it's, for me -- this is just for me, I'm not prescribing it -- you know, I have to remember that I spent a lot of years doing that, that I really [? ? ?] what I'm doing now, contemplating, in those areas. [?] and try not to get sidetracked, and at some point down the road i don't feel so urgent about that, i'll probably do more in that direction. But, you know, it's-- like, i'm really not interested in playing where it's the same-- just playing where it's soloist soloist soloist soloist-- i'm really not interested in going out and doing that and having that be what people see me do. because honestly i'm thinking about trying to do something different, not necessarily new, but trying to take things about that and put it in a different framework.
um, any other questions? anybody want to talk or ask anything about playing? I mean, what do, most of you here, do you play, do you work professionally?
Q: Where?
JB: Has anybody ever done, like, a tour?
Q: uh, well, in europe [? ? ?]
JB: Great. Has anybody else played any kind of jobs, at all, I not talking just jazz, any kind of music. Here we go... What have you done? Yeah?
Q: [?]
JB: No, you...
Q: [? ? ?]
JB: That's great. Um, any more questions? To do with playing at all or their experiences or some of the dreams or nightmares that are out there? Q: [silence] JB: Heheheh. Nobody dreams?
Q: [time's up]
JB: ok. ok, that's alright. well, th-- i hope i wasn't too winded, but...
[enthusiastic applause]